1. First, please read Dornyei's chapter on Individual Differences. We'll focus mostly on this in class.
2. Next read the Kohn articles. Start with Well, Duh! Ten Obvious Truths that We Shouldn't Be Ignoring.
3. Then read his article 5 Reasons to Stop Saying Good Job.
4. Finally, read The Risks of Rewards, which summarizes the negative impact of rewards (with citations).
No Reading Circles from here on out. Instead, please post 2-3 strong reactions (positive or negative) to the Kohn articles. His writing is meant to provoke, so hopefully you feel provoked.
Good afternoon everyone. :) I overall thought that this week's readings were very interesting...
ReplyDeleteDörnyei Article:
1. In the article written by Dörnyei, on page 45, extraverts and introverts are being compared in terms of findings from SLA research. Here, Dörnyei cites Skehan who had stated that, with such tasks as memorizing vocabulary and working on written assignments, we would expect introverts to do better than extroverts. Yet, other learn-by-doing or talk-to-learn type tasks, extroverts have been found to be better at. Immediately Krashen’s Input and Swain’s Output Hypotheses came to my mind. Research done to date in this dimension has pointed out that extraverts are in general more fluent than introverts in L1 and L2. Are we then to say that output plays a bigger role than input in SLA?
2. On page 57 in Dörnyei’s article, Claire Weinstein has been quoted: “Learning strategies include any thoughts, behaviors, beliefs or emotions that facilitate the acquisition, understanding or later transfer of new knowledge and skills.” The only part of this statement I am having a problem with is the fact that she considers emotions to be a component of learning strategies. I am with her in that I agree that emotions would help to “facilitate acquisition, understanding or later transfer of new knowledge and skills.” However, I do not agree that emotions are a component of learning strategies. I believe they are more related to one’s attitude.
Kohn Articles:
3. In the first article by Alfie Kohn, ‘“Well, Duh!” – Ten Obvious Truths That We Shouldn’t Be Ignoring,’ I couldn’t agree more with the seventh truth listed. Especially in Korea, kids are drowning in homework on top of having to go to classes all day long. My students (first grade in high school) told me that they do not come back home until 10:30PM on most days of the week as they have to go to hagwons every day after school. They get homework from school as well as hagwons. When would these kids have time to relax, pick up a hobby (flower design, jewellery making, cooking, etc.) to develop themselves in other ways? We need to consider the psychological well-being of children. The percentage of people who commit suicide is the highest and the rate of increase in the percentage of teenagers who commit suicide is the second highest in Korea among OECD countries. This is not a coincidence!!
4. From the same article, the ninth truth stated by Alfie Kohn is very powerful as well. When I compare stories I have heard from my grandparents with my own experiences versus what I see now in Korea and back home, schools have gotten more “academic” and less “social.” Many people just think that “schooling has just gotten harder.” However, it is more than that. We are facing a global problem. How did we end up here? What could be done now? Where do we start? Unfortunately, I do not have any authority to make the necessary changes at the ministry/school level. But how about those who do? When will they step up to the plate?
5. This was the first time for me to read about positive reinforcement in the form of “Good job!” or “Well done!” being a judgment. I suppose I have never seen it in this light. The way author puts it does make a lot of sense. This would apply to classrooms (teacher-students) as well as homes (parents-children). I have been guilty of rewarding individual/groups of students with cookies, crackers, etc. This article has raised a lot of question marks in my head. I think the most profound thing I have read in this article was when the author mentions that as far as positive judgment what we need to focus on is not that it is positive but rather that it is a judgment.
Hi, everyone. Dee Dee responded to the Dornyei article as well, but you only have to respond the Kohn articles. However, if you want to do more, I won't stop you.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteAfter writing down my reactions to the Dornyei article, I realized that your instructions had asked for Kohn articles only. I didn't want them to go to waste as I had already spent some time trying to formulate my responses. I hope this is not a problem Adam...
Delete1. Punishments and threats are counterproductive (The Risks of Rewards - first page). Now. Kohn only briefly alludes to this statement in the introduction of the article. However, I could not let the four sentence paragraph go without a rebuttal from me. While I strongly feel that anger should almost never be expressed in the classroom by a teacher I do feel that punishments are sometimes appropriate. Threats like anger are not productive if used too often. Students eventually will just wind the teacher up top get a reaction (anger) or just ignore the threats. As someone who was a substitute teacher for three years (early 1990s) I know that students love to get a teacher angry. It stops the lesson and gives them entertainment.
ReplyDeleteHowever, discipline or punishments are necessary. I would love to live in an anarchist utopia where we all self-manage ourselves and live in harmony. But the reality is that some people are not good and they will cause trouble intentionally or unintentionally. Rules in the classroom, especially with those from 5 to 18, are needed to prevent chaos and to allow a comfortable learning environment to develop.
But it is possible to create rules that are agreed upon by everyone in the classroom. I did this in Canada (high school) and I have seen some teachers do this in Korea. Making the rules together makes it more likely that everyone will follow them as the RULES belong to everyone not just the teacher.
2. I agree that students are more likely to learn what they find interesting (Point 3 in "...Ten Obvious Truths That We Shouldn't Be Ignoring".)
Self-learning is something I strongly support as I am often a self-learner myself. In Canada I was a high school history teacher and I taught Canadian History. However, I did not take one Canadian History class at university. Everything I taught I class I learned by myself. Of course I read the textbook but I also read many other Canadian History books. I saw documentaries on Canadian History too. As a result I really enjoyed teaching the subject as I learned it all by myself. I did not learn it for grades or a test.
At Suncheon National University for the language center speaking classes I let the students after the first week choose the topics. I made the lessons but everything we talked about in class was something one or more students wanted to discuss. It meant that at least one or two times every student could chat about something they really liked.
Most of the best Korean English speakers I have met (including many friends) have engaged in much self-study. Some have watched TV shows they liked, seen movies or used other forms of entertainment to help them learn outside the classroom. They took a genre (music/movies) that they liked and used it to be better at English.
3. I also vehemently agree that "students are more likely to succeed in a place where they feel known and cared for." (Point 6 in "..Ten Obvious....")
In classes where I liked the instructor, in high school and university, I got higher marks. In my history classes in Grade 11 and 12 I got an A as I really like the teacher and I enjoyed the material.
In my classes at Suncheon National University and JETI I work hard to create a pleasant atmosphere. I am always polite, I try to remember what students have said to me before about their personal life, and I often share food with my students (Do not worry Alfie Kohn: it is not a reward). I found at the university (credit classes and language center classes) that the attendance was high. I even had a university credit class where not one student missed a class (100% true story and still hard to believe even for me). In my current classroom I have plants, a sofa, lots of classroom art on the walls (and posters of nature) and I clean my windows (inside and outside) every year. There is a beautiful view of the forest outside my classroom so the cleaner my windows are the better the scenery looks.
1. In the first article (Duh! Ten Obvious Truths that We shouldn't be ignoring), I was very touched that he mentioned number 5: Just because doing X raised standardized test scores doesn't mean X should be done. In Korea I have been faced with co-teachers and others who are more worried about test scores and not whether or not the student acquired anything. This also speaks to what I have seen in America. Some of the tests didn't measure a students knowledge, they just measured "How effectively they can pour back the information"
ReplyDeleteThe second part was where they talked about how students have to learn and grow in many different ways. I have been taught this from my background in early childhood, but it is something that teachers forget that students need to develop many different skills to be successful in life. We are not creating machines that can regurgitate information, we are helping to form future generations of people.
2. In the second article (Five reasons to Stop Saying "Good Job"), one of the biggest things that hit me was the point the author had on Children waiting for the evaluation of a teacher to see how they did.
I have noticed in my classroom, that some students will do amazing work but wait for me to "approve" of it. I didn't know where this stemmed from and I was trying to figure out how to combat it, but I realized that I did the same thing to a lesser extent in my school years. One time a teacher after a presentation asked me a question "What do you think you did well today?" I was shocked and wouldn't respond very well. I kept looking at her face trying to get a "read" for what I should say.
She literally asked me "Why won't you answer?" and I answered "Because I think this is a trap. I will say something is good and you will tell me why it isn't." (I am paraphrasing, but this is the amount)
She was shocked to hear this from me, and she talked to our class afterward about why we should take into consideration our own thoughts and feelings on how we did. It is very shocking to go from the student in the situation to the teacher.
3. In the third article, (The risks of Rewards) I was aware of the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. I completely understand the need for a different way to mark achievement. Grades as detrimental has been a huge move in education. I heard about some cities in America that are moving away from the F system. Some of them are based on completion of activities, you don't move on until you complete the activities of that grade.
As a student, I understand how this make students feel sometimes, they want the system to be equal. They want the students who don't do what they do to not be rewarded the same way. I understand that, but as teachers we need/want every student to succeed. We can't have any students fail. Our job is to have every student walk out of high school with a diploma. (at the bare minimum)
I do support the use of re-dos in the school system, we don't allow for that enough in schools and it happens ALL the time in work. We do things for a reason and if we mess up, we get a few things that students never get: mentors (people who step in and say "I did it this way, try that!"), re-dos ("Can you change this?"), negotiation ("What was wrong with this part that you couldn't do it?" "How can we do this differently." "What do you need?") and many other realistic things.
I want to move the system to that way of "rewarding" the students, so it is seen as more intuitively how the "real" world works.
When I read "Well, Duh!", I strongly agreed with the tail-end statement of number three...Students are more likely to learn what they find interesting. He says that assigning homework in elementary or middle school lis not advantageous. While children do need practice, assigning hours of homework to kids who already worked all day is cruel. When I was a kid, I played after school. Socializing and participating in activities that require imagination is more beneficial than practicing what they studied in school. A little homework is effective, but if a kid can produce the desired skill, why not reward them with freetime to do what they like. On the other hand, middle school is much harder than elementary school. I didn't agree with the author on this point. Middle school curriculi demands more time from the students than 45 minutes in the classroom will allow. Still, they don't need to be buried in work. Time spent with their family and friends far supercedes hours in front of a book.
ReplyDeleteIn 5 Reasons to Stop Saying "Good Job!", I found myself pondering how my co-teachers would react to my lack of praise. The alternative expressions Kohn gives are a good stepping stone to limiting praise. Saying what I see is often something I do when the students are drawing the vocabulary words. They love to hear that the flower they drew is big or the house has a chimney. Any attention is good attention. The second alternative where we ask students questions will promote student talk. Ultimately, this input/output method would be quite beneficial in the language classroom.
Just this morning, my co-teachers said we are starting a reward system. Our afterschool program has split the classes into 20 or 25 minute classes with the Korean teacher teaching half and the foreign teacher teaching the other half. The curriculum is tedious and difficult...and designed by the company who pays us. I have struggled to just get the students' homework graded, attendance taken and a lesson delivered in the limited time. Now, more time will be alloted to writing students names on the board and putting stickers in a book. I do not believe in extrinsic rewards. I rarely give candy to my students. I have found they always want more or just get used to getting the candy and don't care anymore. Ultimately, I am just a cog in the machine and I will comply with my company's wishes.
I have mixed reactions to the Kohn articles.
ReplyDeleteI agreed with his points in "well, duh", and a lot of his points are so relevant to the Korean education system of rote memory/test writing. The quality of life that middle school-highschool students experience is sad, to say the least.
However, if school curriculum were limited to what kids found interesting, then there would be a lot more PE and drama teachers than math teachers.
As I read the "5 reasons" article, I agreed with what he wrote about creating praise junkies. In my class if I give one student some praise for trying hard, or listening well, the rest of them are asking me "저는요?" (how about me?). I tell them not to ask that and move on. It's actually more of a praise/attention competitive nature, I think. It gets to the point where if you say "good job" and give a high five to one kid, then you have to give it to all of them who deserve it.
I understand what he means about getting children to become intrinsically motivated to learn and achieve, rather than to receive praise, or avoid punishment.
However, I'm not sure his views are grounded in reality.
In "the risks of rewards" article he wrote
"Neither strategy helps children to grapple with the question,
"What kind of person do I want to be?"
What child ever asks themselves that? Children don't have that kind of cognitive functioning. They learn what is right or wrong by the feedback they get from their parents and teachers.
School isn't only about academic learning, it's also about socialization. The fact is, in this world, we get rewarded for doing well, and punished when we break the law. Kids need to learn that. I would ask Alfie Kohn, "if your employer told you he couldn't pay you anymore, would you continue to go to work?" and "if you knew you would get fired for not showing up to work, would you be there or not?"
Nevertheless, I agree with him to a certain point. When I punish/scold my kids for doing something wrong, I usually ask them "if someone did that to you, would you like it?". As always, the pendulum ought not to swing all the way one way or the other. Kohn's utopian school of no rewards, and only thoughtful consideration is cute, but it isn't realistic. It is human nature to desire rewards, and avoid punishment, the world proves that. However, a classroom where kids are only doing anything in order to receive a star, is also problematic. But to be honest, from what I have seen, it isn't the reward itself (who cares about a star?) which is the motivator, its the competitive nature of humans. Having more stars than their peer is what drives them. And isn't that what drives the world? Why do we go to school, and work, and work hard? Because we intrinsically enjoy it?
From reading the blog post I thought that I wasn't going to agree with the readings; that they were some kind of crazy radical approach. But that would not be the case. I actually completely agree with all that Koh had mentioned. The two that stoked my fire were:
ReplyDelete1) Just because doing x raises standardized test scores doesn't mean X should be done.
This one really gets me fired up, especially with the MA program test right around the corner. I feel that it's insanely hypocritical for a teaching program, that we learn how bad test actually are, have a timed writing test as part of their entrance process. Koh states that timed test 'place more of a premium on speed than on thoughtfulness'. I couldn't agree with this more. Last term, I tried to get into the MA program and had to take this TIMED test. The amount of pressure and anxiety that I got from watching the little clock count down, knowing that if I do poorly on this test I won't get into the program, made it nearly impossible to concentrate and answer the questions. I was amazed that a teaching program would base their entrance on this and wondered how in any way this showed my ability as a teacher. Then came the interview part where one of my interviewers was the one that designed the test. He mentioned that they had just taken the time to complete the first question from 7 minutes to 5 minutes and kind of smiled when he said this; like it was a good thing. Once again I was in 'AWE' that an educator would be using this kind of means to assess potential candidates to their program.
I recently realized from taking this timed test and other tests with short time constraint to finish, that I get wicked test anxiety. This was just a couple of test, I can't imagine having to take the amount of test and weekly quizzes that my students endure.
I know that some people say, "Well we do these timed test to see how individuals handle pressure..." In what way would/does this measure or resemble any type of pressure presented in the real world? I've worked as a cook/chef for seven years, been teaching little ones for six and have entered a number of snowboard competitions; I feel that I can definitely handle pressure. Timed test are in no way an adequate assessment of how an individual handles pressure. To me it is like saying 1+1=peanut butter... However I do love peanut butter!
2) Kids aren't little adults.
I feel that the section where Koh talks about that 'developmentally inappropriate education has become the norm, as kindergarten... now tend to resemble a first or second-grade classroom' is what most Korean parents want for their child. Today I had an open-class with my seven-year-olds. (so that means, real world age six) One of the moms came to talk to me after class about her kid (Jisu), who's not my brightest student. She was curious about how he was doing in class and that she was worried about him. From watching how she was with him in the open-class, I could tell that she puts a lot of pressure on him to speak, but would only give him a seconds to answer before saying the answer. So I gave her the whole spiel about how she needs to not pressure him, instead make it fun, enjoyable, extended wait time, etc... Then we started talking about his little brother who I also teach. While talking about the both of them, she made a comment that they just let his little brother (Korean four years old) play and have fun with English. But Jisu is at the age where they need to start focusing on his academics and not so much on 'play'. When I heard this, it just made me sad. Finishing what Koh had said about the classrooms 'where discovery, creativity, and social interaction are replaced by a repetitive regimen focused on narrowly defined academic skill' has become all too common in Korea these days.
Hi John,
DeleteWe'll discuss this more in class, but be careful about hs name -- it is Kohn.
This is what he looks like:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Alfie_Kohn.jpg/240px-Alfie_Kohn.jpg
Very non-Korean.
Thanks for the visual Adam. :) He looks German I suppose. Definitely non-Korean...
DeleteAt school, one of my jobs is to design tests, so reading Kohn’s truths about testing, and thinking that ‘harder’ tests are better, it makes me feel uneasy. We tried focusing on ‘children being able to use skills’ in the test, rather than ‘memorizing’ but if I am truly honest, the ‘quality’ of our test is probably questionable – and I don’t know how we’d do to prove our test is “good” as Kohn suggests. I tried to include questions whereby students are asked for their opinions and set open questions as a way to move away from the “right or wrong” decision, but at the end of the day, it’s still a test.
ReplyDeleteI doubt schools, especially in Korea, would ever be able to stop testing. As someone who is directly involved in the process, I carry some guilt in this area (all the times I’ve seen a student crumbing in test situations) but I’m not sure how much of a choice I have. In Cape Town, ‘Outcomes Based Education” was introduced as I was finishing high school. The idea of students building a portfolio seemed like ‘progress’ but the results poor, and it manifested as high stress, disorganized teachers, and an overwhelming work-load.
Something that resonated with me was the “children are not short adults” point. I am definitely guilty of pushing my students to do things that are honestly beyond them. Something Adam said during an email this week mirrors this too. Sometimes I think things are bland – so I ‘aim a little higher’ …but in all likelihood – what’s bland for me is probably not going to be bland for my students –it may very well be appropriate. I will even admit to justifying my decisions with the excuse of ‘Yes – I know they’re actually only 6 years old – but doesn’t that make what they can do even more amazing. My kids are amazing’ (I’ve definitely said this…a few times.)
The Five Reasons to Stop Saying Good Job article is something that my school fully supports. During our High/Scope training, we do a whole session of praise and why it should not form part of classroom discourse. While I definitely acknowledge his points about praise manipulating children and creating praise junkies etc., it’s really difficult to ‘withhold’ the praise when a 5 year old says, “Ms. Amy is my picture beautiful?” I can say that I have been trying to use less praise – but it is so difficult to get out of the ‘habit.’
I was really interested in the idea that we praise because “WE” need to. This is an interesting idea for sure – and is probably linked to the idea of teachers’ linking their own sense of success to their children’s success.
The third article was, again, something I could relate to in that my school also doesn’t believe in the use of rewards. There are no time-outs, no stickers, no ‘your name is on the board – 3 strikes and you’re out.’ Instead – we label, give children space to be creative and express themselves, and rather than ‘punish’ we problem solve. That is, we negotiate – we restate problems children have to help them identify what the problem IS and we get them to think of ways they could fix the problem. This is probably the one area of High/Scope that I have found the most difficult – not because I want to give stickers, etc. but problem solving with a 5 year old in their second language is extremely difficult and time consuming. It’s also almost impossible if you are the only teacher in the room.
I would also go a step further to say that I have found that the children who have been through our program become very ‘good’ at debating their points and I have found there is a certain amount of ‘arrogance’ as they get older and try to ‘problem solve their way’ out of trouble. As a teacher (I know Kohn won’t like me for saying this…) this attitude of ‘I can get out of this – because in any case, there are no consequences’ makes classroom management really difficult.
So – while I definitely agree with a lot of Kohn’s points, and they certainly give me food for thought in terms of what I do in my classroom, I am left wondering where we go from here. And more importantly: HOW do we get there?
In Reply to “Ten Obvious Truths……”
ReplyDeleteWhen I first read that he was a provocateur, I went into these readings expecting to be pummeled by blustering pontification, and was happy to see my expectations proved wrong. I found myself nodding in agreement with many of the things he said, in particular being against treating students as empty cups to pour knowledge into. Rote memorization is helpful for some things, but it certainly is not good approach to EVERYTHING, and I think that was his point. Students are unique persons, each with their own needs and issues. Why are they treated the same? I sympathize with his position on students having more “of a say,” but I also think that caution and discipline should always be our watchwords. Yelling and Brutality are not educational tools, but it can’t be forgotten that the students are in fact children. His point about “forcing” kids to do things is understandable, but it misses the obvious reply that kids need to be “forced” to do some things. I hated eating vegetables as a child, and my parents forced me to anyway. Why? Because it needed to be done. I would have never taken an algebra class in my life if I had the choice, because I “wasn’t interested” and I wasn’t good at it. I don’t question the necessity of me having to do it anyway. I do wonder if he has given deeper thought on the practical implications of changing the things he wants to change. That is problem with “big ideas,” in that reality has a habit of getting in the way. He seems to be dismissive of centuries of educators who worked hard to expand our pool of knowledge. Obviously if something doesn’t work, you do something else….BUT, there has to be a realistic dialogue of what is possible. It is easy to criticize from the gallery and lecture people on “what they should do,” but those who are actually doing it are the ones who have to live with the consequences of this “idealism.”
In Reply to “Risk of Rewards” and “…..Good Job…….”
I liked what he said to say on Rewards and verbal praise. I have been hitting a wall with this in my own teaching, as my students expect “games” and become unruly when I try and do other things before the game (or spend one class period on just presentation and practice). Classroom management is already a big challenge for me (as I often teach without a co-teacher, and this includes many students who are low level) and their discontent exacerbates the situation. I honestly hadn’t given the idea of “Good Job” as judgment any thought….it never occurred to me to see it that way. It is something I am pondering on, as I do have a habit to say Good Job whenever the students do well. A Christian Saint, St. Porphyrios had this to say:
“ Teachers, should avoid praising their students, because in that case they become selfish and with this egoism they go away from God and they ignore their parents and teachers. Parents and teachers shouldn’t say any lie to their children/students, neither should they praise them. Praising the young makes them selfish. They ask for praising in their whole life. If it is not given, they get frustrated. They also can’t adjust to society which is cruel for the unprepared. Later, these kids will end up to the psychiatrist’s couch.”
Obviously written in a religious context, but the insight that “Praise” may actually be harmful is counterintuitive, but being revealed as true.